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Your comments
See also The Changing Church |
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Picture: Saddleback Worship Center is on the right side; the special interest booths on the left. The tall building in the back is the Terrace Cafe. More pictures | |
Purpose Driven Churches - Achive 1
Your responses to Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven ? Part 1 Part 2: Unity and Community Part 3: Small Groups and the Dialectic Process Part 4: Dealing with Resisters The Loneliness of the Christian Part 5: Spiritual Gifts and Community Service Re-Inventing the Church, Part 1 & Part 2 Creating Community: (Part 1 ) through Transformational Leadership (Part 2) through a New Way of Thinking |
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From Ngaire Booth: Greetings from Australia. We are meeting opposition here and have thoroughly enjoyed your website. We are trying to absorb the information ASAP so we are better able to warn or comfort others, depending where they are. We recently met a young woman who was questioned because she had come to Christ through the Scriptures, and not through a programme!! Please feel free to give our email address to others form Australia as there are VERY FEW speaking out against this movement.
Thank you, Ngaire, for all the information -- and for making yourself available to encourage and help others.
From Dennis Nampa: Rick Warren, and the Saddleback Church, has done more to benefit the kingdom of God than any other ministry in the United States. Rick's call back to the church having a purpose of why they do what they do is a blessing. Having grown up as a pastor's kid, in a fundamental baptist church, I have been able to see exactly what Rick's heart is in this movement. For so long now, the church has been able to see souls saved; however, there has been nothing in place to provide discipleship to the people. Rick's heart and purpose of the "Purpose Driven Church" captures this. It teaches the importance of every member being a minister and their importance of doing evangelism (which is only one portion of the Great Commission). However, Rick's approach goes deeper than just evangelism, it captures the full essence of the Great Commission which completes the full circle of the five purposes in which Christ gave to the church to fulfill. If you are unable to see this, I pray that you would take a second look at the full scope of Rick's intention before you deliver an attack against the underlying reasons of why and what Rick has done for the better of the church.
Also, I believe that Paul makes it clear that we are not to be stumblingblocks
to the unbeliever in seeing and hearing the gospel message. Paul even states
that "I become all things to all men in order that I might win some." The church
must get out of the mentality that preference is gospel and get back to the same
believe as Paul. If it requires us to step outside of the church preferences in
order to win a soul to Christ, then we must be willing to do so. If not, then I
believe the church is guilty of being a stumblingblock to the unbeliever.
Thanks for your time in responding!
In Journey Together For Christ
I appreciate your thoughtful comments, Dennis. But the issue isn't "church preferences." It has to do with reinterpreting the Bible through new "versions" such as the Message, taking Scripture phrases out of context in order to validate and justify the world's entertainment and management strategies, emphasizing collectivism, giving an imbalanced view of God and His manifold attributes, making promises and suggestions that are not Biblical... -- all the points we explained in "Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven" and "Creating Community."
Like you, I want nothing more than to see unbelievers come to the Lord, Dennis. But if we "soften" God's Word, present a God that pleases the world, or widen the gate to His kingdom, we are not serving our King --or the people who need to know His whole truth. Please see "Don't conform to the ways of the world" and "Persecution" and "God's eternal, unchanging Word."
From Jane Whiting: Re: The
question raised by an earlier letter,
What's driving all
the PDL pastors?
In reading that letter I could not help but reflect on "The story behind the
story" or better yet.... the spiritual "wizard" behind the screen in the
occult tale "the Wizard of Oz." As what is so aptly portrayed in Ralph
Epperson's book The Unseen Hand we have to ultimately look
at the spiritual forces that are continually at work behind the
scenes of human history. Those demonic forces, which are more active now in
these last days than at any time in history, are focusing in both the "good"
and evil types of deception.
The original tree apart from the tree of life was the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" which "was good for food, & pleasant to the eyes, & a tree to be desired to make one wise." (Genesis 3: 6)
These pastor's are knowingly or unknowingly feasting on that very tree & being seduced by the demonic forces behind it. "You love evil more than good, lying rather than speaking righteousness. You love all devouring words, you deceitful tongue." (Psalm 52:3-4)... “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." Matthew 6:24.
This is a time as never before
we must stay alert and stand firm in the Faith that was once and for all
delivered unto the saints.
In Christ Jesus I stand,
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary, the devil, walks about like
a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” (1 Peter 5:8) For "...the
whole
world is under the sway of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
From Don Mitroff:
All
4 of your points I agreed with. However I have come to
conclude that the missing element is Mysticism ( tapping into the spirit
realm). I believe that the evidence is in that via Pastoral counseling,
Transpersonal Psychology, Robert Schuller and Willow Creek leadership
conferences, etc... along with so called inner healing and "higher self"
actualization methods. Many pastors have opened their hearts and minds to
spiritism and have opened Pandoras spiritual box. They have been initiated
and spiritistically hornswaggled to think "outside" the box ( aka Gods WORD
) or even to center or "tap into" Jesus via contemplative prayer,
meditation, etc.. AND THEY HAVE GOTTEN MUCH MORE THAN THEY EVER BARGAINED
FOR.
Here's evidence that links Rick Warren to mysticism: (1) Warren's open
endorsements of Dan Kimball of the emerging church...( heavy mysticism
endorser). (2) Endorsement of Richard Foster on his website.
Yet under the complete
providential knowledge and plan of Jehovah, who is bringing this judgment
for His Ultimate Glorification and so that all things may be fulfilled as
written in His Holy Word.
It used to be //that you couldn’t get a group of Pastors to agree on
anything -- color of carpet, order of service, church discipline, length of
service, music, etc.... Now, however...... enter New Age Mysticism or
spiritism wrapped up as Sound Christian disciplines...and voila...UNITY
CONSCIOUSNESS!!!!
1 Timothy 4:1, 2 "Now the Holy Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter
times, some shall depart from THE FAITH giving heed to seducing spirits and
doctrines of demons, having their consciences seared as with a hot iron."
This page quotes Thomas Merton: http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?artid=2043&id=59
I share your concern about Richard Foster and Renovare, Don. And I wrote about Thomas Merton in A Twist of Faith - Chapter 2. Here are two links that back your observations:
The Purpose-Driven Church. (From Rick Warren's pastors.com) Brian McLaren: the story we find ourselves in
: "Interdependence, though imbedded in nature, is foreign to the Western individualism so ingrained in American (U.S.) Christianity. That's why McLaren's 'new kind of Christian' often uses words like 'journey' and 'conversation' to describe Christian life beyond the postmodern divide...."'Brian has moved beyond simple deconstruction and stone-throwing to a much more productive combination of healthy critique along with future-thinking and praxis,' says Mark Oestreicher of
Youth Specialties."
The next article is from the popular magazine started by Youth Specialties:
Mysticism. Contemplative Prayer Practices: "Every book on CPP [Contemplative Prayer Practices] I've ever read talks about deep breathing. Interestingly, while this is the most physical aspect of CPP, spiritually it's the most suspect. ...
"Ignatian Contemplation: A form of prayer used by Saint Ignatius of Loyola incorporating the imagination. There are a number of different exercises associated with Ignatian contemplation, but there are two I teach frequently. The first is connected to sacred reading, and simply put is visualizing the situation of a Biblical text with you in it.....
"The point of a labyrinth is to journey to the center of a spiral pattern traced on the ground and journey back out again. While walking through the pathway in the labyrinth, participants are encouraged to ask God to speak to them in the walking. ....
"Iona: Refers to an ecumenical community based on the island of Iona where Saint Columba founded a monastery. ... Beginner's tip: Get a bunch of people together. Be intentional and accountable and outwardly focused. I guarantee this CPP is the hardest, but also the most rewarding."
Romans 8:26-27
From a discerning pastor:
(A response to
"Part 5: Spiritual
Gifts and Community Service") Well aware of the misuse of the Spiritual
Gifts by so many churches, we began a mid-week Bible study at the beginning
of the year on Spiritual Gifts. It has been a wonderful journey for myself,
beginning NOT with what I was taught in Bible School all those pentie-years
ago, but with the WORD OF GOD and an open heart and a hunger for the TRUTH.
It has been a long journey and we've only JUST begun 1 Cor 12 this last few
weeks, spending quite some time in Romans. But before that, we laid some
foundations from the Old Testament, looking at how God equipped men to build
His Tabernacle (His dwelling place amongst men) as a foundation to the
building of His Spiritual dwelling place among the Church today.
The study has brought us all closer to God and into a deeper understanding
of how He desires to work in and through us, and how He desires us to live
and serve and trust in HIM. Our study has shown, without a shadow of doubt,
that God works through our weaknesses, NOT our strengths, and how, with so
many examples from Scripture (and from Church History, including today),
that our strengths only get in the way. Of course God can, and does use the
natural strengths and gifts He has given us, but that is completely opposed
to how Warren, Hybels and others teach it in the Church. The most difficult
task we have is to surrender our gifts and to allow HIM to rule and reign,
with or without our gifts, and to use us in our weakness and TOTAL
dependence on HIM -- driven by Love for Him and for HIS glorification. My
own testimony of transferring from my previous engineering profession to
teaching and ministry is one of letting go of my own natural gifting and
strength, of which I so depended.
I find that those with MUSICAL gifts have the MOST difficulty in doing this,
but the Church does NOT discourage but ENCOURAGES the participation in
church life with these musical gifts, regardless of one's spiritual walk.
(And as a result, our music in the church is getting more professional and
less worshipful of HIM who is worthy of our adoration, and I'm certain I
need not elaborate on that point further to one such as yourself!)
May God bless you and keep you close to His heart, ever seeking out the
truth and becoming more conformed to His image day by day, from glory to
glory.
From a concerned Christian mother:
I have to watch myself and not get too absorbed in all that is going on or I
get depressed or shortcut time I should be spending homeschooling and taking
care of my family. It truly is sad that most around me don't want to hear
about how the church is being buffaloed, just like the schools. And it
amazes me every time I read about another person who has been labeled a
dissenter and forced out of their church.
I've been meaning to ask you what you believe it is that is driving all of
these pastors? Is it that Warren and Hybels have captured the heads of all
the denominations with consensus building and it is then a top-down pressure
to the districts and on to the individual pastors? (Spread via annual
denomination pastoral conferences?).
It just boggles my mind that there are that many Bible-believing pastors who are sucked into this based just on the numbers and growth alone. There has to be another carrot.
I, too, wonder what is driving so many seemingly faithful pastors into the new fold. Here are some possible reasons:
1. The threat of losing so many church members that they will be forced to close.
2. The much repeated statement that traditional churches will die or are dying.
3. Publications such as Christianity Today's Leadership, which tells all kinds of promising stories about leaders and churches who have chosen to go with the purpose-driven transition. Whether they know it or not, many embrace what Erwin McManus calls "The Theology of Change," in his book The Unstoppable Force. (Rick Warren wrote its foreword: "Read it and learn. Read it with an open mind.... This book will help you along the way."
4. The popularity of Rick Warren's books. Around the world, thousands of church members who have read the Purpose Driven Life are pressuring their pastors to go through the 40-Days processes. If enough people insist on doing so, it's hard for a pastor to resist. Once the church has finished the first 40-days program, the leaders face even more pressure to continue with more of the same -- or send pastors to some of the PD pastors and leaders conferences.
The last point is probably the most effective one.
From Fabienne: Little could Amy Carmichael have imagined how low the church in the West would sink less than a hundred years after she wrote "Things as They Are" (1903)[long out of print]. Yet her words in chapter 7 of that book are so apt when addressing the "seeker-friendly" approach. She describes a visit to a home in South India where she shares the Gospel with a group of women:
"Something in our talk led to a question about the character of Jesus, and, as we tried to describe a little of the loveliness of our dear Lord to her, her dark eyes kindled. 'How beautiful it is!' she said. 'How beautiful He must be!'
She seemed 'almost persuaded,' but we knew it was only almost, not quite; for she does not yet know her need of a Saviour, she has no sense of sin. Sometimes, it is true, that comes later; but we find that if the soul is to resist the tremendous opposing forces which will instantly be brought to bear upon it if it turns in the least towards Christ, there must be a *conviction* wrought within it; nothing so superficial as a *feeling*, be it ever so appreciative or hopeful or loving, will stand that strain."
Satan is no less active in our
Western society than he was -- and is -- in South India. He is quite happy
to let people take an interest in
Christianity because of some emotional moment, but he is not about to let
them continue in that direction if he can help it, and will do all he can to
put pressure on them if they look to be too interested in the true Gospel.
Miss Carmichael would have been horrified to see aspects of Hinduism -- in
the form of New Age practices -- being welcomed and adopted in the church!
How can people who call themselves by the name of Christ be so blind?
Oh, how we must pray for the church's leaders, and for our deceived brothers
and sisters, that they might turn from this evil path and cling to the
Truth!
From S. O.: I have gotten myself on Rick Warren's email list, and have seen some pretty interesting material. Much of it is run-of-the-mill stuff, but this one is so blatantly promoting Diaprax that I had to pass it along. Unfortunately, I have previous commitments on the days of this conference or I would attend. (see below)
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Purpose Driven Ministries" <email@purposedriven.com> [See http://www.purposedriven.com]
Subject: Church Transitions Coming to the Kansas City Area - Oct 5 - 6
This conference will help you to transition your program-driven church to one that is purpose-driven. Through this conference, you will learn an 8-step process to transition your church to one that reaches its community for Christ.
Day One will help you develop a strategy to effectively lead your church through change. You will learn how to prepare the vision, define the vision, plant the vision, and share the vision for a church that reaches the lost for Christ.
Day Two will help you to begin the process of transitioning your program-driven church. Learn how to implement your vision, deal with opposition, make course corrections, and evaluate your results. ...
SPEAKERS
DAN SOUTHERLAND Author of Transitioning: Leading Your Church Through Change and founder of Church Transitions, Inc.
GLEN SARTAIN Glen Sartain is an international transition coach who has directly led traditional churches through transition to become fully Purpose-Driven.
From Patrick Shreve: I just read part of the excerpt on the Purpose Driven Life where there was a section on "Ancient Egypt and Oneness" [from Deceived on Purpose]. I was struck by the term that was used in the the Lord's Prayer: "as above, so below." [see The Message]
I couldn't help but corrolate this with the belief of the Mormons. "As we are, God once was, and as He is we will become." How much of a coincidence this is I say. Seems like the enemy sure loves to infiltrate the Christians presence, and so many fall for his subtle influence and have not the the presence of the Holy Spirit to discern the craftiness of the enemy. We have to be on our toes at all times and above all wear the full Armor of God and not lay any of it down, for when one piece is laid down we are struck with his fiery darts. Again may God continue to bless you and yours in this ministry of discernment.
From Dennis M.: I am really dismayed. Even before I ever read one word of commentary about Rick Warren's purpose driven books and philosophy, or ever read your articles on the subject, my red flag went up. I knew right in the beginning that something was seriously wrong. I am no theologian by any stretch of the imagination. A great deal of the Bible I do not yet have a good "handle" on. Still, I can see through the purpose driven deception. What I find to be so upsetting is the sheer number of supposedly learned Christians that are embracing this new program. Why can't they see what I seem to be able to see and what you have written about? I find that most so called Christians who have embraced Mr. Rick Warren and his material are already so steeped in it that it is nearly useless to even try to discuss it. I have been soundly rejected by people who are glaringly blind and deaf to any sound Biblical reasoning. It simply boggles my mind. I don't even want to try to discuss it anymore. It is sad.
Fourth letter from Karl Hansen
(see first letter
and scroll
down to second letter): Good news! Our decision to leave caused
much concern and heartache. Both humility and love for the truth is winning.
The leadership is open to continue to learn about possible dangers of the
purpose-driven model. While there may be much more to learn and grow before
we see a recognition of its perniciousness, we no longer have deaf ears. As
long as they are listening we will continue to sound our voices in loving
concern.
God bless and thanks for your prayers.
PS. I am reading Charles Spurgeon's "Down-grade" controversy. He faced
similar pressures with the rise of modernism and eventually was rejected for
what he wrote. His humility, faith, and boldness would likely be an
encouragement to all facing these things today.
"Look to me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God and is
there no other." Isaiah 45:22
I thank God and praise Him with you! He always proves Himself faithful to those who faithfully trust Him and follow His ways!
Third letter from Karl Hansen
(see first letter
and scroll
down to second letter): I just returned from a 3 hour meeting
with my church elders. I would say that I stood my ground with conviction,
openness, and humility. Perhaps there are areas that I need to grow in and I
am willing to accept that. My main defaults in trying to shed light on the
purpose-driven model and other things according to the elders is that I am
not loving enough. They feel that I come across too negative and make people
feel lower than me. This is a deception in me that I cannot see according to
them. The young man that threw me out of the meeting was not corrected or
rebuked for his actions.
I was instructed that there is nothing wrong with Warren's association with
powerofpurpose.org as he has "infiltrated" the camp of the enemy to
influence it for good. No talk of "New Evangelicalism" would help. Much
warning and admonition was given to me for not have a proper balance between
grace and truth. But simply because I disagree? The fact that the church has
not fully accepted all of Warren's ways makes accepting some of it ok.
After I was challenged by all these things, warned, and told I have no
Biblical reason to separate from this church, we dismissed with prayer. I
have never felt so alone and misunderstood in my life. My wife was in tears
as I recounted the evenings events. No matter how true my words may have
been, because they didn't produce good reactions in people I was being
unloving.
I appreciate your prayers. Please post this if you like. I know it is not
much, but we are going through a real tough time now.
"Look to me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God and is
there no other." Isaiah 45:22
From Dan Titus:
Thank you so very
much for your articles regarding Pastor Warren’s Purpose Driven Life and
Purpose Driven Church. Our church is rather large. We recently received a
new pastor. Immediately changes began to occur that changed the focus and
the direction of our church. We were very troubled by it, but were unable to
put our finger on the problem. Other people shared our concerns, as well.
After reading the first article you wrote about Purpose Driven or Spirit
Led, it makes perfect sense what is happening. I went to Saddleback’s
website and to my amazement saw many of our church’s web pages (different
church, different address, but same concepts). Even the terminology is the
same. We wept last night.
I’ve been preparing for the ministry (I’m 47 years of age). We began to pray
what God’s direction would be for us. Our children could not stand the youth
department because of the lack of spiritual training. Everything was this
“feel good” gospel. Last year I was asked to teach the high school Sunday
school class for four weeks. At the end of each lesson the students broke up
into discussion groups. I presented the questions for them to discuss. One
group decided they would rather discuss the latest R-rated movie. The
discussion leader had no problem with them changing the discussion. Another
group looked at the questions and said, “that doesn’t pertain to us. We
don’t need to discuss this.” Their discussion leader allowed that as well.
The discussion was on I Thessalonians. It was a discussion about
persecution. No interest in the Bible.
We started small groups in our church. I didn’t want to participate, but God
moved on my heart to be a small group leader. I am training people to learn
how to evangelize. Out of approximately 75 small groups, there are only 3
that are ministry oriented. One is on evangelism (mine); one is evangelism
specifically to the construction industry; and one is to women recently
released from jail. Everything else is social in nature. There is no
direction for the gospel. We are left on our own to do what we want. I’m
happy that we are teaching evangelism, however. At least some people are
receiving the gospel.
I’m sorry to vent like this. I just want you to know that what you are
presenting has been on our hearts for some time. God bless you richly,
Second letter from Karl Hansen
(see first letter):
Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah. I wanted to
share an update with you concerning the purpose-driven situation in my
church. The leadership has not required me to submit weekly assessments due
to my objections. My pastor also sees problems with Warren's Gospel, but is
leaving these things virtually untouched. In other words, it is being
ignored. This doesn't make sense to me at all. I showed how Warren has
associations with unbelievers that is unbiblical (powerofpurpose) and
submitted a statement of faith on separation to be included in our church.
The statement was read from the pulpit and endorsed so I have hope that we
may see changes. Yet nothing is being done and my questions and concerns are
not being addressed which makes me feel ignored.
Nevertheless, my "stance" of opposing certain things has not been received
well. The other night a video was shown that contained highly questionable
elements and images that disturbed the youth. I took the youth director
aside privately after the meeting was over and urged him for more
discernment and to work with me on these things. This man lost his temper
and began yelling at me and then threw me out of the meeting.
Please keep my family in your prayers. We feel isolated and alone, but are
praying without ceasing asking God to change our hearts where we in error
and strengthen our hearts in the areas that are pleasing and honoring to
Him. The Lord is certainly not pleased with this kind of contention and
friction between brothers. We need wisdom as to whether to stay and work it
out without compromise, or ask the Lord to move us along to a place where we
can fellowship with like-minded believers.
This man who threw me out of the meeting also teaches our young children and
my wife does not want our children taught by him now. We need to find a
place where we can grow in the Lord as a family.
All glory to Jesus!
I am so sorry, Karl, that you and your family must suffer so under this new system that demands inclusiveness and forbids so much of the truth. Yet, I am confident that our Lord will use your struggle for good. You are truly at the forefront of the new form of persecution in what was the christianized world. It reminds me of John 16:2.
Here are two articles that I will refer to in my next article on the 40 days of community. The first one is by Rick Warren:
http://www.pastors.com/articles/SevenTransformation.aspThe second article explains how that societal transformational must be accomplished. It is posted in the digital library ("blackboard") of the leadership school for Regent University in Virginia, which was founded by Pat Robertson. One of the associate pastors from Saddleback (Eric Rees) is apparently studying the latest leadership strategies at that "Christian"
university.
I just thought this article might help explain the criticisms you had to endure tonight -- and the program that is being implemented in large churches around the world. You may recognize Peter Senge's name. I wrote about him in "Reinventing the Church, part 2."
http://deming.eng.clemson.edu/pub/tqmbbs/prin-pract/comcom.txtPlease don't feel you need to read all this. I just thought that you might be encourage to see that your Biblical position, which must have pleased our Lord, would not fit the new systems thinking. We are truly approaching a time when the religious establishment will despise those who stand on God's Word. But "blessed are you when men hate you" and reject you ... and spurn your name as evil for His name sake. "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for great is your reward in heaven." Luke 6:22
Thank you for modeling such faith and obedience to Jesus, our Lord and King. I am so glad He is your Rock and your Refuge in the midst of this storm.
From Rose and Heidi:
I am writing on behalf of my sister and myself to tell you our story. We,
too, had to leave our church when it fell into the Purpose Driven deception.
That was in mid 2003, and it wasn't until April, 2004 that we stumbled upon
your website. It has been a source of fellowship, encouragement and vital
information for which we are very grateful. We find your research accurate
and in line with what we have experienced. Here is our story:
When we first came to our church five years ago, each of us received a
tremendous deliverance from demonic oppression that stemmed from the occult
and involvement in the charismatic movement. My deliverance was especially
remarkable, as I had fallen into such darkness and bondage through
charismatic deception as is hard to describe. The presence of God was so
evident in our church and the Holy Spirit showed me all that was wrong, and
the truths from His word that enabled me to leave Satan's kingdom and
receive the full redemption of our Lord Jesus. I was wonderfully saved and
delivered.
But slowly and subtly, the enemy found ways of accessing our church, and I
could see how allowing sin and compromise, and not obeying God's precepts
opened the door to Satan's activities. Around mid 2002, our pastor and
church fell for the deception of the Purpose Driven Church. Thank God that,
since He had brought us out of deception already, my sister and I could see
what was happening, and we gave many warnings to the leadership that our
church was in great danger. We prayed and pleaded as God's hand of judgment
came on our church, the Holy Spirit was grieved away, and dark spirits of
the New Age and the occult came in.
What finally forced us to leave was what we saw the night we attended a
session of our district conference. The speaker was Dr. Kevin Mannoia of
California, founder of the Century 21 Church Planting System, which we were
not aware that our church had adopted. His whole talk consisted of New Age
terminology. The occult demonic oppression released during his talk, was the
most powerful I have ever felt. I rushed out of the church to pray outside;
my sister stayed and took notes. We left, terribly shaken, and never
returned. God gave us both the scripture about the "abomination of
desolation standing in the holy place". Here are some of the notes from
Mannoia's talk:
He jokingly referred to the upset in the church when the contemporary music
came in. Then he said, "There's going to be more changes, so get used to it;
it's O.K." He used terms like: Kingdom connectedness, apostolic movement,
think collectively, nature of the Kingdom as community, transformed
communities, a Kingdom people collectively. He kept referring to a "river"
and encouraged everyone to "go deep", "go in over your head". He said,
"Wouldn't it be great if the church of God went totally out of control?" He
said, "Let the river flow - become God's people." He also used a
visualization technique. During his talk he cracked jokes about whether you
could worship God while you're smoking marijuana. The two slogans for the
district conference were:
"GOING FROM GOOD TO GREAT" and "CHANGING THE WAY WE DO CHURCH".
My sister and I have waited on God much about our church's situation over
the past 3 years, and, as impossible as it seems, He has given us an
unshakeable assurance that He will deliver and restore our church. He has
led us to pray and believe for a revival of true Christianity. He has guided
our every step and strengthened us along the way. We have distributed
material to our church leadership and various members to alert them about
the apostasy. For the longest time there seemed to be no response or
interest. But we continued to sense God's hand with us in a distinct,
undeniable way. A few months ago, we saw the tide begin to turn. We are more
frequently encountering church members and they have been more receptive.
What joy the Lord gave us when He arranged an amazing meeting with a woman
in our church who also sees the error of the PDC and expressed her burden
about what is happening. She is speaking out. God has also opened
opportunities to share the truth with two other purpose driven churches in
our city and has spurred our faith for revival there, too.
We have been greatly encouraged through reading Jonathan Goforth's book, "By
My Spirit". His accounts of revival show how a revived remnant can intercede
for an intervention of God's mercy.
We covet your prayers and thank you for your fellowship and ministry.
Rose and Heidi, I thank God for your willingness to take a stand! It’s a real spiritual war, isn’t it? How blessed we are to know our King at a time such as this!
I haven't read Jonathan Goforth's book, but I have read a little about him. He sounds like a wonderful missionary and servant of God. I would like to read his book.
Berit, I am submitting the rest of the quotations from Mannoia's (yes, it is double "n") talk. Here they are:
"kingdom culture", "great kingdom community", "kingdom is like a river", "we're like that river of God", "under the flow of the Holy Spirit", "kingdom flow", "that river will carry, sustain, uphold you", "the church is always changing", "be the people of God in community", "wherever you go life thrives in your collective units - in your community", "differentiated identity", "cluster power", "you're an apostolic movement of the flow of God that comes from his very heart", "fruit of transformed communities". (end of quotes)
Not once did Mannoia make mention of the Lord Jesus Christ or of His Gospel.
Here is some background information on him: past president of the NAE (National Association of Evangelicals), and Bishop Emeritus of the Free Methodist Church. You can find more info about him at www.pbs.org and www.apu.edu/unboxing/partners/KevinMannoia.htm
Please DO post any or all of the information/letters we sent you. We too were hoping this would serve as a wake up call for other Christians. Once again, thank you for your support and prayers.
From a concerned Christian:
First
of all I want to thank you for the articles on the Church Growth Movement (CGM)
that you have posted on your web site. I found them very helpful when I
began my recent search for information on Rick Warren, 40 Days of Purpose,
etc. I am still digesting the articles and have shared them with my wife.
My wife and I attend a Baptist church in Sydney, Australia. Recently the
senior leadership team have decided to run with 40 DOP (starting in October)
and I can see the progressive steps you have mentioned in your articles
taking place - we have already been urged to "sign up" - every one of us -
for the program. But I'm an analytical person and decided to do a bit of
checking of my own, which revealed some very disturbing information.
I feel that our leadership, and senior pastor in particular, are "sold" on
40 DOP. Apparently our church is intended to be a "model" that would
encourage other churches to accept certain changes in the way we "do church"
- that is, along CGM lines.
I have shared some of my concerns with my pastor, but have received little
feedback so far . Your prayers will be valued.
I hope and pray that God will touch the hearts of your pastors with the warnings concerning the worldwide purpose-driven movement. I know many in Australia -- pastors as well as church members -- have tried to stop this drive from transforming their churches. But those who are caught up in the new fervor seem blind and deaf to the problems, almost like ancient Israel when the Isaiah and Jeremiah tried to warn them. It is so sad.
May God continue to encourage and speak through you to those around you. And may He strengthen you and draw you ever closer to Himself through this battle.
From Joel D. Augenstine, Sr.:
Thank you so much for posting the two
current articles "Spirit Led or Purpose Driven" 4 and 5. My wife and I have
not been a part of traditional (so called) church group for the past 15
years. I could never put my finger on what was going on in churches that my
wife and I would attend. I knew for certain that what they were teaching and
preaching was not from God or Jesus Christ. At one time I was even asked to
become an elder, so I took the opportunity after prayer and talking with my
wife and others that I respected and knew as Godly men.
During the first elders meeting I was asked if I would also accept the
position of Chairman, my what an honor I thought. Then the second meeting
came and so did the reprimands for not taking care of things properly. This
was a small group of Bible believing Christians, but there was one elder, a
business owner, that wanted to build a larger sanctuary. You know if we
build it they will come. But, I was not taught just to accept more debt as
that is what God wants us to do, my father was a missionary, Bible based
preaching evangelist, my mother reared by her parents to read and meditate
on scripture, my first reading book was my mom's King James Bible. I opposed
this man's proposition, I explained that the reason we were small was not
because of building size, it is only God who increases, and that is what we
need to focus on. After that second meeting the elder and his wife made
accusations that I was not fit for service, nor was my wife fit to teach any
of the children in Sunday School. So we left. About six months later the
congregation slowly left and the building was sold.
You wrote about a congregation that was asked to vote whether to follow,
blindly, the leaders. The vote was 750 to 165 to accept what the leadership
wanted for the congregation. Only 18% thought that the Bible was the correct
way to teach, 82% thought that man's way was ok. Do you think this would be
a fair assessment as to how many Christians are really following Jesus'
commands? Only a few take the narrow hard road, most want an eight lane
super smooth freeway. During the mid seventies I drove a over the road truck
and trailer hauling livestock from sales yards to farms and ranches in
Washington and Oregon. Most of the roads were black topped, some had
dividing lines, some did not. There were a lot of times, because I delivered
the livestock at night after the sales finished, it was foggy, very foggy,
most of the time you felt as though you were driving in a circle and
difficult to see the road. But I never had an accident, never lost or killed
any of my four legged passengers. But I am reminded a lot about those days
or nights of driving, that this is the way Jesus is. Even though the road is
narrow and dark, if you stay in the word for your headlights and ask the
Father for direction, you do not need a man made GPS system which will fail
most of the time.
Knowing the Savior Jesus is not a religion, it is the way to life and to
live now.
It’s a hard time for so many uncompromising Christians around the world, Joel. I believe God is teaching all of us to persevere, endure rejection and remain faithful to Him no matter what challenges we face -- just as you are doing. I am so glad you have found fellowship with a few others in Christ. So many families tell me they were rejected by all their friends when they chose (or were asked) to leave the church they had served for years.
From Jane Whiting: (concerning "165 members ousted from Gardendale Baptist") As Rick Warren Says "we loose hundred's but gain thousands," this is a good example of what he means by "Blessed Subtraction." Or as a local pastor stated "If you don't get connected in a small group or are willing to "serve" in ministry, leave, we need the parking space."
From Karl Hansen: I recently read your post about Gardendale Baptist and needless to say I was appalled. The article did not mention any heresy on the part of those who were expelled from the church nor were they accused of any gross immorality or heinous sin. Their only apparent violation seemed to be non-conformity to the purpose-driven paradigm shift.
I am a youth leader at our church. Like other church leaders, I have been asked to submit weekly evaluations about our meetings. I am asked to report on attendance, success of the meeting, problems that occurred, what the purpose of the meeting was, etc.
The church staff would have the youth ministry turned into a smorgasbord of entertaining activities designed to retain current students and attract new ones. It needs to be “fun” and “exciting” and you need to shorten the message time. Doctrine doesn't fit. Scriptures like Acts 2:42 don't matter.
I would very much like to get more information about Gardendale if possible. I think they can serve as strong example to us who have just implemented this new philosophy into the church. I have shown the staff that Peter Drucker’s communitarian ideology pervades Warren’s thinking. To my astonishment they didn’t seem alarmed at all. In fact, it was defended with the argument that God used Pharaoh, so why couldn’t he use a Peter Drucker! What a misapplication of the Word of God!.
Thank you, Karl, for sharing your observations. The conflict you face is multiplied around the world.
I had actually posted a link to an audio news interview with some of the people forced to leave Gardendale Baptist Church, but the link no longer works. Perhaps someone wanted to limit the public exposure.
It's sad to see how the postmodern church misapplies God's Word. You mentioned the argument that "God used Pharaoh" to justify the pragmatic purpose-driven acceptance of a partnership between the church and the world. I keep hearing the same reasoning from others. The following statement was posted on Bob Buford's Leadership Network (leadnet.org) which works with large churches around the world (See Small Groups and the Dialectic Process"):
In the report, "Ten Paradigm Shifts Towards Community Transformation - Part 2," Eric Swanson quotes Ecclesiastes 4:9 (“Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work”) to validate his point that churches must shift "From duplication of human services and ministries to partnering with existing services and ministries." Misapplying that Scripture -- and ignoring the fact that most community agencies ban the gospel message in order to remain "spiritually neutral," he explains:
"Nearly every community has a number of human service agencies that are morally positive and spiritually neutral that are doing their best to meet the needs of the underserved and under-resourced people of the community. Such agencies include the local food bank, homeless shelter, emergency family housing, and safe houses for abused women, etc. Equally true there are church and parachurch ministries that are effective in ministering to specific target audiences (business community, youth, college students, etc). Rather than starting a new ministry, why not form partnerships with existing groups as “partner ministries” of a local congregation? Chances are that people from your congregation are already serving in many of these organizations. Why not use the current community energy to create synergy?
"The Bible is replete with examples of how God used secular people in partnership with his people to fulfill his purposes. Think of Joseph and Pharaoh...."
http://www.leadnet.org/allthingsln/archive_template.asp?archive_id=33&db=equipper